Vaccination is apparently a topic that can get people really fired up. To grossly stereotype the two extremes, you have the anti-vaccine crowd who essentially equate vaccines with poison and then you have the pro-vaccine crowd who essentially accuse anti-vacciners of being selfish fear-mongerers.
We don't fall into either camp. If I had to guess, most people don't. They just get the vaccinations because they trust their doctors (who trust the AAP) to know what is best. And I do believe that when the CDC puts out their vaccination schedule, they do it with the overall health of the whole country as their top priority.
If you don't really worry about vaccines and are fine with the decisions you've made, feel free to not read the rest of this post. I don't really want to disturb your peace of mind, though I don't think there's anything here that would. That's not the point of this post anyway, to try to change your mind or judge what other people do - I just was working through this myself before starting our pediatrician search and figured why not share it with you all?
When it came to vaccines, we weren't really worried about autism or side effects. But we decided we needed to look into the topic of immunizations a bit more for two reasons. First, it seemed unnecessary for our newborn to get a Hepatitis B vaccine when she's born. If I don't have it, there's no way she's getting this STD, so it seemed unnecessary. Second, there's a vaccine for the chickenpox, and it's just really easy to laugh it off when we all lived through it just fine. (Although I realize that shingles in old people is a really bad thing, so I don't want to scoff too much.)
The Vaccine Book by Dr. Bob Sears seemed to be the best unbiased source for us to learn more about vaccines. You can read the introduction to it here. I didn't want to read a book that was just going to scare me into refusing vaccines altogether. I liked that he was explicitly not anti-vaccine, but still willing to walk parents through all the vaccines that are out there. He realizes that there are going to be parents who want to do things differently, so instead of just saying no to all vaccines, he provides alternative approaches.
After reading a chapter about each individual vaccine, I felt pretty confident in getting four of them (HIB, Pc, DTaP, meningococcal) and in not getting four others (Hep B, Hep A, HPV, flu).* I was and remain uncertain about the last four (rotavirus, polio, MMR, chickenpox). If I had to guess, our child(ren) will eventually end up getting them, either because of our pediatrician's recommendation (or because many offices only order combo shots, so for example we'd get polio along with DTaP and HIB by default) or because they'll need them for school.
Speaking of school, why not just wait on all of the vaccines until kindergarten rolls around? Because several of the diseases are more of a risk for babies, so we do want to make sure our kids are protected from those. As for the other shots, a big part of the reason we personally feel okay in delaying some of them is because our children won't be in daycare (less exposure) and we're hoping to breastfeed for quite a while (more natural immunities).
My husband and I never had physical problems with vaccines, and really don't expect our children to. However, in looking back at my immunization schedule (do you still have yours?), I realized I only got three vaccines (DTP, MMR, and polio). Children now are scheduled to receive 12. That seems like quite an increase, though children are actually exposed to fewer antigens now, and despite the (in)famous theoretical estimation that children could receive 10,000 vaccines at once and be fine.
I really appreciated Sears' discussion of aluminum in vaccines. While it has not been proven to be harmful, no one has actually done the necessary studies to determine this. Partly because of this, we'll be erring on the side of caution and following his delayed schedule of vaccines. This requires you to go to the doctor's office more often for shots, but at this time we're willing and able to do that. (We just have to find a doctor who is, too!)
Sears actually offers two different schedules for vaccines - one that is "selective" (for parents who were leaning towards getting no vaccines - this at least has them get the least theoretically risky ones) and one that is "alternative" (for parents who want to get all the vaccines but are still worried about the theoretical risks). These two schedules are exactly the same for the first 8 months, so at this point we plan to follow that and then decide from there.
And those are our thoughts on vaccines. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, whether you agree or disagree and whether you're passionate or indifferent, as long as you're charitable!
* I should stress here that these were simply our conclusions, and not those of the book.
As usual, I didn't receive any sort of incentive to review this book. Just sharing what I read!
Refused the birth dose of Hep B for both kids, but our pedi gives a HiB/Hep B combination which we were okay with. Hep A had just been added to the general schedule when Lisbeth was 18 months so we went ahead and said yes since she was in daycare ~ we will probably wave it for Liam.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing, I just added this book to my library requests! :)
ReplyDeleteJoe has his 2 month well child check tomorrow, which I assume he will get his first round of shots tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteUnfortuneately I never read up on vaccines before Joe was born (and he came 2 weeks early before I could!) so we went ahead and got the Hep B vaccine, but thankfully he didn't have any adverse reactions. I doubt we'll get the Chicken Pox vaccine, just because it seems unneccesary. Still unsure about the flu shot... I never get them (Ryan does) so that one is still up in the air!
I think it's great you are researching it and thanks for sharing this book suggestion.
I also read the Sears book and found it to be a good place to find facts. Since I will be staying home with our child and breastfeeding we have decided on no vaccines for the first year. The schedule in the book showed other shots that started after 1 yr old (can't remember what at the moment) that I'm undecided on but kind of forgot about since I have time to figure that out later.
ReplyDeleteI did appreciate the different options given in that book and the statement that if the child is not in daycare and you breastfeed (he wrote for two years) the likelihood of any of those diseases is slim to none. That stuck out to me and we're going with that.
For the same reasons as you, we do not do the Hepatitis A or B. If our children grow up to work in the medical profession or something, they can choose to get them then. We do/will not get the HPV or the flu. We just don't think they are necessary.
ReplyDeleteWe do get the HIB, DTap, Meningococcal, Polio, MMR and Chickenpox. Yes, my husband and I had chicken pox and were fine, but we have a 4 year old, a 2 year old, a 1 year old, and a baby due in the Spring. With how close together and how young are kids are, I'd rather get them the vax than have an older child giving it to a newborn. Our track record just worries me with the possibility of a newborn or small infant easily contracting it from an older sibling. (I can't remember what the Pc vaccine is, but I think it is one we do).
We have not done the rotavirus. When I gave birth to our oldest, almost 5 years ago, the vaccine didn't even exist, so she never got it. Since we never gave it to her, we have just not given it to any of our kids. I know it can dehydrate a few children into the hospital, but most kids get it like any illness and are fine and we don't see the need to give it to some of our kids and not others. If she didn't need it, I don't see why the others do.
My husband and I did read up on vax before having our first child. I am not really passionate about the subject provided no one is trying to make me into a "bad" mother for my vax choices (which the first doctor we took our daughter to did - we never went back). Each family is different. I think each family needs to weigh for themselves which vaccines might be wisest for their family and which ones are unnecessary.
We use Dr. Sears alternative schedule, and I have been very happy with it. We declined Hep B at birth, and our children get it later on.
ReplyDeleteAnd since the MMR separate vaccines haven't been rereleased yet, we will be giving the full vaccine at 15 months for our second one.
When they are released again next year, I will be getting the separate components for our future children.
As for delaying all vaccines, I respect this viewpoint, and I understand it, but Dr. Sears mentions in the book that the problem is that many of these diseases are most dangerous during the first year of life...
for allergy prevention reasons, we delay for the first year and then do one at a time every month (or as close there of as is convenient).
ReplyDeletethe ones that are only dangerous in the first year - HIB, PC, and menningococcal - we don't bother with. polio i'm also not concerned about since there hasn't been a documented case of wild polio in forver (if we lived or traveled overseas, we would definitly get it).
chickenpox also makes me laugh (and shingles as an adult is increasing BECAUSE Of the vax. people who had have c.pox naturally and then are ROUTINELY EXPOSED TO PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING CHICKEN POX maintain their immunity. but since kids are having chicken pox anymore, the antibodies aren't being produced in the adults and when they ARE exposed, its shingles. no good!) and rotavirus seemed unncessary.
hep A, B and HPV (should we have a girl one day) are off the table since the first is actually not serious in children and the 2nd two aren't an issue (our kids STD and needle drug exposure is limited :-p) oh and we've never been flu shot people, so no to that too.
we DO do dTap (only series my first has completed) and i want to do MMR, but separated and am waiting for them to offer the singles again.
my things are the allergies, like i mentioned (my husband is a hot mess in that dept) and not having a ton of aluminum AND combined scary big diseases injected all at one time. their immune systems are just so tiny!
japan and other 1st world countries don't do nearly as many shots and start them after a year as well and have much, much lower rates of reactions, autism, etc.
oh i should add - these decisions are based on no daycare and exclusive breastfeeding for 6 mo and extended breastfeeding beyond a year.
ReplyDeleteif we had neither of those, HIB, pC and mening. would be back in the schedule.
in addition, with the increase in pertussis outbreaks, i am intersted in getting the booster for myself and my husband (my son is done that series) to protect the baby since the 2.5 year old is going to be exposing the baby to all kinds of yuckies from playing with other kids. obviously, with a first kid, that sort of thing wasn't an issue!
Great post! Thank you. I've been meaning to order this book.
ReplyDeleteJust curious-did the morality of how some of the vaccines were made go into your decision making process? I'm referring to the fact that several vaccines were produced with cells from aborted babies. (I'd have to look up which ones-I can't recall off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure one is MMR.) Does the book go into that at all?
This is a great post, and so non-confrontational! I'm always nervous talking about our vaccination choices, because people seem to get so passionate about this issue!
ReplyDeleteI was planning to wait until my oldest was two before starting any vaccines, since she doesn't go to day care, but I recently decided to go ahead and start catching her up. She got the HiB shot at 18 months, and I think we are going to do the MMR next month. The conventional schedule just seems like a lot of stress to place on such a tiny system, and I wanted to be cautious. Part of this is probably because I work with a lot of children on the autism spectrum, and have heard a LOT of their parents talk about the correlation they saw between vaccinations and the onset of autistic symptoms.
I know two good pediatricians who will support different vaccine schedules. Drop me a line if you want their names.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with others on the calm tone of this piece. I hated the way good friends and doctors made me feel for simply asking questions.
Hubby and my biggest concern is about the fact that many of these vaccines are derived from the tissue of aborted babies. There are a lot of articles out there about this, but this is just a quick overview of some of those vaccines and brief info: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0044.html
ReplyDeleteWe still have a lot to discuss and look into before our little one is due and I have to admit its overwhelming and depressing to me.
I will start by saying that each of my three children have different vaccine schedules. Because each of their situations was different. All were breastfed exclusively for 6 months and then extended BF'd and"home" with mom. For my first that meant mostly literally home with mom or out with other adults. But for my 2nd and 3rd they got dragged around to classes and were around other children more, so I was more concerned about exposure to germs.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I refused Hep B for my 1st until he was about a year or so, when he started being away from me for short periods of time on a playground. Then he was bitten by an Asian kid (Asian's have a much higher risk of carrying Hep B). He got his Hep B shot. This did put me to thinking that it might have been foolish to wait to give the vaccine until after an incident. With the 2nd, I think that she had it on schedule beginning at 2 mos. I know the 3rd did as well. This was mostly for the convenience of the combined vaccines. I would have been fine letting them wait until there was an actual possiblity of expossure.
We gave DTaP, Polio, and Hib.
We have refused varicella, but will take that around 10 y.o. if they have not contracted it naturally. Hep A is also on the refusal list because it is a self limiting disease, that mostly has no lasting effects; at least that was what I told patients who had the disease back when I was employed as a Public Health Nurse. I will say that our pediatrician says there have been some findings that say it is perhaps not as benign as was previously thought. Still none of my kids have the vaccine.
I refused the pneumococcal vaccine for some time because of the content of the website for Prevnar (the brand name). The website talked about the number of children in the USA who get ear infections and so on. I was really offended by this because it had been hoped that the vaccine was going to provide protection for ear infection, but it in fact did not. It was so sly though because the website didn't claim that it did provide protection. It only implied that it provided protection by mentioning ear infections. They have since changed the website and since my ped has always really wanted us to get this one, I finally gave it to the kids. The oldest two got the "catch up" schedule which was fewer doses each.
I also refuse rotovirus because of it's history of problems. It had been brought to the US market, and children had abdominal blockages, and then it was pulled, reworked and reintroduced. It has a better track record this time around. I would probably give this if my child were going to daycare, but since they stay home, I don't.
I see that I am very long winded, but since I wrote it, I will post it....
ReplyDeleteAlthough I do agree that it is very unlikely that we will run into wild polio, it is unlikely because of the giant global effort to make it so. If too many people begin to refuse this vaccine before it is erradicated, it could make a comeback. Particularly living in LA, I feel like my potential exposere is just a plane ride away. That said, I have no major objections to it.
I almost always take the flu vaccine and have been mostly giving to my children.
I hope to not "need" to give my dtr(s?) the HPV vaccine. My major problem with it is the timing. If I give it to my 11 or 12 year old, it would be ineffective by the time (hopefully) that she would actually have need for it. This one has me in a bit of a quandry and I am glad that I have a good bit of time to ponder this one.
Your provider might offer (or just use if you don't state any objection) a combination vaccine Pediarix-DTaP, Hep B, & Polio The point being to give fewer needle sticks, but also to "increase compliance".
I do get annoyed when people imply neglect for my child. Or that all people who refuse/ delay vaccines are worried about autism from MMR. Or that if only I knew what the disease was like then I would certainly give the vaccine. I have in fact seen many of these diseases either within my family and friends or professionally.
I think that is good to make an educated choice about vaccines, that takes into account each family and individuals situation.
We delay vaccines until after age 3-4, and then we only vax selectively.
ReplyDeleteAnd we definitely won't get the flu vaccine, and the new info about the flu vax linked to miscarriage is frightening but I haven't studied it in depth.
Here are some anecdotes as to why we don't vax.
My oldest son had the full vax schedule, and he has learning disabilities. My second son and next daughter were mostly vaxed, but not the Hep B at the hospital. We didn't follow the AAP's vax schedule because we had gaps in insurance, but my 5th baby had a severe reaction. She was so little so all she could do was cry. My oldest son also had extreme reactions- he would rage for at least a day afterward.
At that time I started learning about delayed schedules. I also got my first and last flu shot- it made me so ill I had to call my husband to come and drive me home from the dr's.
My 6-8th babies had no vax whatsoever. However, in August my 4 yo daughter (never had a vaccine at all) got a bad cut on her foot. She needed a tetanus shot, but the only one approved for her age was the DTaP.
Six days after getting that vax we ended up in the ER because of a terrible rash that swelled her neck, face, and upper body. The ER doc said it was a reaction to the diptheria part of the vaccine, and also told me that red heads are very, very sensitive. He gave me a referral to a ped who is well versed on delayed vax, side effects, etc.
I agree that the amount of vax a child is scheduled for is so many! And they haven't been studied for safety when given 6-8 different vaccines all at the same time.
We delay vax with pertussis first, then MMR (MMR is IMO especially important for the girls) but we wait until our children are much older (4 and 5), able to talk and tell us if anything is wrong, and has a stronger immune system.
We do a delayed and selective schedule. However, we definately do them. For my husband, who is from a developing country and has seen first hand some of these diseases, it was never a question. As we would like to live overseas as well, there is a much higher risk that they will be exposed to things that they might not encounter in the US. That being said, we do not allow more than 2 shots (usually just one, but some are combined) per visit, and thankfully our current doctor is very supportive of our choices. Of course, it has taken 3 different pediatricians to find one who would work with us on this.
ReplyDeleteIt's so interesting to hear everyone's approaches to this!
ReplyDeleteKaitlin, great question. I was a bit disappointed because the book did not discuss this at all. The only time this was mentioned was in the section on how the MMR vaccine is made, where he states "The rubella virus was originally taken from an infected aborted fetus in the 1960s." He does have a very short section later on the use of animal and human tissues in vaccines, but there is never any discussion of morality, which I found surprising.
One other offshoot to look into is the loss of 'herd' immunity which varies wildly based on geography. In areas where you are in a very small minority if you opt to not vaccinate, the widely immunized population offers protection to your children. However, if that minority grows, loss of herd immunity can allow diseases that had been on the decline to resurge.
ReplyDeleteMy first child was vaccinated on the typical CDC timeline. For my second child, my pediatrician, oddly enough, put us on a delayed schedule once she learned he had been born at home. I called it my automatic ticket to the granola track!
I may be wrong about this, but I thought I had read about the Chicken Pox vaccine being cultured in fetal tissue, so many Catholic parents chose not to have it.
ReplyDeleteI've wondered about delayed vaccinations - heard the term before, but never took the time to look it up as it's not exactly something urgent in my life at the moment. Anyway, should The Man and I ever have children, I will be returning to this post and it's comments, they are both excellent.
ReplyDeleteThe Vatican actually addressed the morality of the Chicken Pox vaccine, which is cultured in aborted fetal lines.
ReplyDeleteThis is by far one of the best posts that I have ever read on such a topic. Great job being non-offensive!
ReplyDeleteI think that you're taking a great approach and I would do something similar. Things might change when faced with a real child who hated shots, but for now I am quite willing to subject my hypothetical child to delayed vaccinations and multiple (can't remember the term for splitting up the shots) shots rather than combining them.
As long as we live in the US and there isn't a change in the current situation our children just won't get the ethically questionable vaccines for which there are no alternatives. The Vatican says:
"As regards the diseases against which there are no alternative vaccines which are available and ethically acceptable, it is right to abstain from using these vaccines if it can be done without causing children, and indirectly the population as a whole, to undergo significant risks to their health. However, if the latter are exposed to considerable dangers to their health, vaccines with moral problems pertaining to them may also be used on a temporary basis. The moral reason is that the duty to avoid passive material cooperation is not obligatory if there is grave inconvenience."
http://www.cogforlife.org/vaticanresponse.htm
So I do believe that it is up to the parents to make this decision for themselves (providing they make a point of protesting which is the duty of all of us!) but for me the current standards in the US do not count as a "grave inconvenience." Of course I might change my mind if I had an actual baby in my arms!
Anyway, best wishes for it all going well for you and your children. I think that you're taking a great approach.
Rae, I respect your opinion, but I just want to clarify, that Catholics in the U.S. who choose to vaccinate their children against chickenpox and rubella are absolutely not doing anything wrong according to the Vatican.
ReplyDeleteI feel that the quote you included in your comment doesn't give a full picture of the Vatican response.
At the end it says this:
"as regards the vaccines without an alternative, the need to contest so that others may be prepared must be reaffirmed, as should be the lawfulness of using the former in the meantime insomuch as is necessary in order to avoid a serious risk not only for one's
own children but also, and perhaps more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole - especially for pregnant women"
Rubella is dangerous to pregnant women, and since most adults have likely not been keeping their own vaccines current and up to date, it is possible that if our children contract rubella and a pregnant woman is exposed, her unborn child could be at risk.
Risk seems to be a subjective point, but as long as the person is using a logical informed definition of risk, they are free to make the best decision for their families without fear of moral consequences.
I hope I'm not stepping on toes here, but I just don't want Catholics feeling like they need to go to confession because they vaccinated their children...
Hi Megan, I'm genuinely confused about why you thought I implied that Catholics in the U.S. who choose to vaccinate their children against chickenpox and rubella *are* doing anything wrong according to the Vatican. Do you mind emailing me rae@nowealthbutlife.com and letting me know? I want to be able to have these discussions online without making others think that I am asserting that something is right/wrong for them. And since you seem fairly balanced I would love your view of how I could communicate more clearly.
ReplyDeleteRae, I truly didn't mean for my previous comment to come off as accusatory. I'm sorry. :(
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to make sure that both sides of the argument were represented fairly. This was a debate that has come up recently in my own life where there were several confused people truly concerned about their moral standing when they realized that the vaccines they gave their children were created using aborted fetal tissue.
I probably should have mentioned that in the above comment, and those concerns were what really drove my response to your comment not necessarily your words.
I'm sorry that I didn't communicate more clearly.
I will email you later today. :)
I have a 3 yr old girl a 15 month old boy and am expecting in Feb.
ReplyDeleteWe don't do flu shots. I can prevent dehydration. The shots are only a guess as to which strains will pop up in a given year.
As for others, I go to the website for Children of God for Life which explains which vaccines are derived from aborted fetal tissue and what if any alternatives are available in the US.
The only exception to the above is MMR. Per Vatican website (document is specified on the Children of God for Life website) MMR although derived from aborted fetal tissue is permissible if not encouraged. If enough people were to refrain from MMR vaccine the drop in societal immunity could cause expectant mothers to lose unborn babies making those who refused to vaccinate partially culpable for their deaths.
I realize this is an old post, but I thought I'd throw my thoughts in. I have to say that I'm a physician (and a mommy!) so that's where I'm coming from. I did appreciate that this post was fairly balanced - there is a LOT of very inflammatory info out there which sometimes make it hard to have a civil discussion with people.
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to highlight what you wrote about children being exposed to fewer antigens now than 20-30 years ago. Vaccine production is much better now than it used to, and so even though there are numerically more shots, they are all "cleaner" - as in they contain fewer proteins/shot because we have figured out which proteins cause the most lasting immunity.
There is no evidence that a delayed vaccine schedule is any safer than doing it the traditional way.
That said, I personally have no issue if my patients choose to delay. I would rather my son be fully protected against these diseases, but of course everyone weighs the benefits and risks differently.
Just because we all lived through a disease (like chickenpox) doesn't mean that it never causes serious problems. Chicken pox can kill. Rarely, of course, but in some kids it causes very serious infections. I definitely think that trying to make sure younger kids are protected when there are older kids around is a great idea.
As for HPV - this is what I tell my patients. I understand that many people have qualms about vaccinating for an STD. But if I have a daughter, she will definitely get this vaccine - not because I will teach her that premarital sex is ok, but because I can't control who she will marry. I likely wouldn't give it at age 12 or 13 - this seems really young, but maybe 16-18. Lots of people rebel as teens and make foolish and sinful decisions before coming to know the Lord. While I would hope (and pray) that my daughter meets a man who has saved himself for her, this might not be the case. And I want her to be protected.
My kids will also always get the flu shot, but since I work in health care they are more likely to get exposed. I feel confident that it is a safe vaccine, but I can understand why people choose to avoid it.