Before I can implement modesty

This is a follow-up to this post. Heads up, this is turning into a three part series!

Before I dive into my dresser drawers, it seems to me there are more big picture things to address…

Modesty obviously refers to much more than clothing. I’m not really exploring the important internal aspect of modesty in the present discussion, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it deserves to be addressed! It seems to me that modesty in action and modesty in dress go hand-in-hand: one fosters the other. This article really struck me in this regard (especially since she questions the modesty of blogging!). A quote:

[A] culture built on attention-getting and self-promotion is never going to teach young people why that should be proper in every venue except the field of fashion.

So often we dress for attention! We want the attention of both men and women. We want them to look at us and admire us. And I’ll throw this out there: Sometimes women actually are dressing to make their brothers stumble. We don’t realize this is our intent, but when you’re striving to look sexy, well, isn’t it? (Note: I am just as guilty as anyone in this!) If you want every guy in the room to notice you, whether he’s in a committed relationship or not; if you hope someone finds you irresistibly attractive, aren’t you intentionally citing lust?

I think we’re all tempted to this. But as I said last time, I do not think this is the best reason for modesty. Our own dignity is. As another article points out,

[I]t a mistake to put so much emphasis on the danger of tempting men to sin. It is certainly a part of the problem, but it is at most only a secondary part. Treating it as if it were the "main point" of modest dress can make matters worse, in two ways. For some it will only aggravate the puritanical tendency [that a previous author] rightly lamented for causing many women to dress in ugly, bag-like clothing that hides their shape. If the main idea of modesty is seeing to it that we don't tempt our brothers to sin, then obviously the more invisible we make our figures the better. Modesty is reduced to its negative aspect, i.e. sexual-sin-avoidance. Its deeper essence as reverence for the sexual sphere is down-played or lost entirely.

Yes – reverence! Why do we need to dress modestly in the first place? Because our bodies are evil and ugly? No – because our bodies are holy and beautiful! It’s not about hiding the bad – it’s about veiling the good.

And reverence isn’t just relegated to the female figure. It’s something men should abide by, too.

Applying Modesty to Men

I really enjoyed this funny article about modesty, among other reasons because the author points out that men should dress modestly, too! He notes that in Chaucer’s time, men wore quite revealing tights, which left nothing to the imagination. To which I crinkle my nose and say eww.



The more I thought about it, the more I realized that immodesty in men is not just a thing of the past. Remember when basketball players wore tight short shorts? Well, I wasn’t actually alive for that, but I get a big kick out of seeing the pictures:

And even now, this is an issue. I’ll give you a second to think of one way that men are still immodest in their dress.

Got it yet? I’ll give you a hint: “gangstas” and the teenage boys who emulate them…

Yes, I’m referring to seeing guys’ boxers because their pants are falling off them. (Not sexy in the least, but to be immodest a look doesn’t actually have to be attractive.) You could also argue that wearing those undershirts and all that bling is immodest.

Okay, so as a “feminist” I feel better on two counts now. 1) As discussed last time, dressing modestly prevents female objectification, and 2) modesty needs to be applied to both men and women’s dress.

Modesty, Femininity, and Fashion

So if modesty also applies to men, what about “modesty” guidelines that don’t allow pants? Obviously those guidelines are directed towards women. But really, are pants themselves immodest? No – they cover more than a knee-length skirt. Although you could argue that they show more of the shape of a woman’s legs, I don’t think that’s the issue. The issue here is that modesty is very often conflated with femininity. I think it’s nice when women put emphasis on looking feminine. But strictly speaking, that’s not the same as modesty.* I think that modesty at its most basic is about covering the sacred.

I can certainly respect women who choose to only wear skirts and dresses. At this point, I am fairly confident that in my pursuit of modesty I will still be wearing jeans and even shorts. Just from a practical standpoint, I don’t have enough dresses and skirts to rid my wardrobe of everything but that. (I might make it through a summer, but certainly not through these colder months.) All that said, I personally would like to work on dressing in a more feminine manner, because (a) it makes me feel pretty and (b) my husband likes it.

But dresses don’t necessarily equate to feeling pretty - in particular when the dress is unfashionable. Think of the much-maligned jean jumper. Rip it all you want, but remember ladies, that was actually in style for a while there!

That brings us to a final consideration: is it important for Christian women to (not) dress fashionably? I’ve heard arguments for both sides, and once again the answer seems to lie somewhere in between. Some say Christian women should dress fashionably so that others feel comfortable around them, can relate to them, evangelize easier, what-have-you. Others say absolutely not, Christian women should not cave in to the standards of the secular world around them, they should stand out as a beacon for Christ amid the debauchery. I for one don’t think fashion and modesty are mutually exclusive. While it might take some effort, a woman should be able to dress in a way that is both stylish and respectful. Also crucial to that is her attitude. It will take effort not to succumb to a holier than thou attitude towards her secular sisters when a woman adopts modesty, just as it takes effort not to mock her religious sisters’ more rigorous standards (and yes, their jean jumpers). But I think it can be done.

And apparently I think it should be done. Darn. Writing about this really means I have to do it, huh?

I went out and bought Wendy Shalit’s book “A Return to Modesty” this weekend and plan to start reading it tonight. I’ll let you know what she has to add to this discussion once I finish it. I haven’t yet decided if I will overhaul my wardrobe before, during, or after reading that… but it is coming. Whether I like it or not.

As always, I'd love to hear your take on this! Can and should we demand modesty from men as well as women? What is the relationship between modesty and femininity? Is it possible to dress fashionably and modestly? Any closet jean-jumper lovers out there?

*I’m actually somewhat open to debate on this. Depending on how you define modesty (perhaps “avoiding indecency” or “revering/respecting our bodies as males/females”), I think an argument could be made for a stronger association of traditional femininity and modesty.

The Saturday Evening Blog Post

I'm taking a break from my self-inflicted "no blogging on weekends" rule to participate in the Saturday Evening Blog Post, hosted by Elizabeth Esther. It's easy - you just submit your favorite post from the month before. And what a great way to read other people's best posts!

I included my post "Becoming a Real Woman." I think it's fairly representative of the types of things I'm usually thinking through on here (NFP, femininity), and I really like hearing other people's opinions as well. Plus it was actually somewhat short, which is rare for me - often I get going and just can't stop myself!

I look forward to reading your all's posts!

7 Quick Takes (11)

1. When I told my husband the scientist that it was finally time and I was getting my hair chopped off this week, he burst into song. No joke.



Picture if you can my husband (the same man who wore a sumo suit) jumping around the kitchen and rocking out, not with an air guitar, but with an air tambourine.


2. I planned to donate my hair to Locks of Love. However, the salon I went to doesn't actually donate to Locks of Love, because it turns out they're a for-profit organization! They sell the hair you donate to them! So they give to another group (whose name I of course cannot recall) that actually does use it to make wigs for kids with cancer.


3. I was quite torn as to whether I should include pictures on here. Then I decided it was criminal not to include a visual on your blog when you have one, so they're below. To be honest, I don't like this haircut that much, but I think it'll grow on me. (Please note that this is not code for "please compliment me and tell me how great my hair looks." Seriously.)


4. Okay, ready? Here's the before, my long beautiful locks:


And here's the after:



5. I actually went through twice and wrote up 7 Quick Takes all about my hair and this experience. And then I realized how ridiculously vain and self-centered I sounded. Especially while I'm immersing myself in modesty literature. Oh, the irony! Sorry about that.

Does this song make up for it? You're at least bobbing your head by now, right?


6. Speaking of modesty, I'm discovering that this is a much bigger issue than I thought. Silly me thought I could just sit down and broach it in one post. Maybe it'll turn into a three part series? Maybe that's just because I'm putting off actually taking a cold hard look in my closet?


7. Okay, I did actually glance in my closet and nothing jumped out and shrieked "You look like a whore in this!" I think that's an encouraging start.

For much more interesting Quick Takes, check out conversiondiary.com!

Thinking through modesty

Modesty is never something I've really thought much about. And I was perfectly happy with that. Really, who wants to think about that when you can succumb to the glorious and inundating consumer culture advertising telling you to buy buy buy! The only thought I gave to my clothing purchases was how cheap I could get them. Actually, I also did pay attention to whether or not they were flattering to my figure (years of training from my mother), unlike many women. Then again, I still sometimes bought things that weren't the most flattering, so perhaps that makes me worse?

Anyway, the topic of modesty keeps coming up. I can take a hint. So if you don't mind, I'm going to take this post to work through some of my thoughts on dressing modestly (although I know modesty entails much more than clothing). Feel free to discontinue reading at this time. And more importantly, feel free to let me know your thoughts (or lack thereof) on the matter!

Modesty or something else?

I'd like to start by proposing that there's only about 15 years of a woman's life where she is most likely to base her apparel choices on modesty - the ages of 15-30, give or take a few years. Before that, girls aren't too concerned about revealing too much (they don't have much to reveal yet). After that, I think the beast of self-consciousness overrides modesty. You're hard pressed to find a 40 year old woman who is going to flaunt her body (outside of Hollywood); I'm guessing it's less because she wants to be modest and more because she's self-conscious of certain features.

In the last few years, I've purchased clothing that covers a little more, because I wanted to look appropriate. As I try to dissect the basis of appropriateness in my mind, I think it's a combination of things: consciousness about my body, consciousness about other people's opinions, the dress code of whatever event, and perhaps a smidgen of modesty. Concern about what other people think is probably the top of that list.

What is the motivation behind and meaning of modesty?

So what should our motivation for modesty be? Certainly not peer pressure (which can have positive and/or negative motivations and effects).

Many times in a Christian context I hear the motivation is to help prevent your brother from sinning. In other words, a man can't help but feel desire when he sees certain things, so let's make it easier for him and not show those things. I don't think this is a bad point. However, the argument only goes so far. As feminists have pointed out, the responsibility for a man's actions should not fall completely on a woman. The extreme case of this would be excusing a rape because the victim was "asking for it" in the way she was dressed. No. The responsibility for the action lies solely with the man.

Another argument is that women should dress modestly to prevent themselves from being reduced to objects. I think this is stronger argument, just because it seems modern women can identify more with this. We've all seen the shirts with writing across the chest directing the interlocutor's attention upwards. Women want to be seen as people, not objects. But when our cleavage is hanging out, it's difficult for other people to do that.


And let me say that this is not a male/female thing. When I see a woman who's dressed slutty, I have to confess that I don't usually see her as a person. I know I should look at her as a person, one who is desperate for attention, one who has confused being beautiful with being sexy. But instead I see her as a stereotype; I judge her; and to some extent I do even objectify her. (I know I'm not supposed to. I'm working on that.) So I don't think we need to even bring in the "men just always have sex on their minds" card: everyone is objectifying this woman.

So it seems to me that the primary purpose of modesty is to prevent objectification; to promote seeing the person as a person. A common secondary purpose seems to be to enhance our femininity.

I was just reading an article called "Modesty in the Abrahamic Religions." Some relevant quotes:

Outside of marriage men and women equally are called to be chaste. Modesty is a virtue that protects chastity. Its importance lies in the fact that, as John Paul II says, chastity is a requirement of the person so that the person is never treated merely as a sexual object. ...

Modesty cannot be simply identified with clothing or with the absence of clothing. Shamelessness comes about when the person gives in too easily to the sensual reaction to the opposite sex and reduces the person’s “body and sex” to a mere object of enjoyment. The human body in itself is not shameful nor is human sensuality in general. ...

Men have a particular responsibility to understand their greater orientation to sexual values and strive for self-mastery. The woman has a responsibility to dress and act in a way that enhances her femininity and at the same time conceals appropriately those parts of her body that are likely to arouse men’s sexual desire. The type of dress will depend on the activity the man and woman are engaged in. Playing tennis or performing in a ballet will require a different kind of dress and exposure than the dress worn for a business meeting or attending Church. ...

Today’s dress for women reveals much about our sex-saturated, androgynous, materialist and individualist culture. Dress often seems designed to conceal the sex of the wearer, or if it reveals it to make the body a sexual object. There is a real task for Christians to restore the dignity of the body and sexuality by consciously espousing those values in dress that enhance dignity, modesty, femininity and beauty.

How do I practically implement this?

I started writing this section and was completely overwhelmed. I'm going to take a day (or maybe a week) to think this through. In the meantime, I'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions!


Want to read more?
Here are some other interesting discussions of modesty from some blogs I've read. While I don't agree with everything these women do, it's great food for thought!
Betty Beguiles discussions about modesty - particularly The Counter-Cultural Virtue and Behind Your Veil
The Apple Cider Mill discussions about modesty - particularly Modest by Any Means: The Four Faces of Modesty and Thoughts on Modesty
Pursuing Titus 2 discussions about modesty
Domestic Felicity discussions about modesty (Orthodox Jewish perspective)

The pill can make your gums bleed

That's what I learned at the dentist this afternoon. That, and I have a cavity.

See, since I haven't been flossing for the last three months lately, my gums were really bleeding while she was cleaning. So the dentist mentioned that birth control can do that to you. (Isn't every 20something woman she sees on the pill? No?!) Of course I had to ask why, and it turns out your gums bleed more when your levels of progesterone and estrogen change. Of course, this happens naturally when you're on your period, pregnant, and going through menopause (not all simultaneously, obviously!). That's not a big deal because it's a relatively short period of time.

The step she didn't take was to say that when you are on the pill for a long period of time, it might become a big deal. This is a single woman who lives in NYC, after all. There's no way she's saying that. And perhaps it's not true - I'm not a dentist, so I don't know. Just thought I'd throw it out there!

A watched doorbell never rings

One of the things I was most looking forward to with our move to suburbia was Halloween! Adorable children dressed up in costumes coming to our front door sweetly requesting candy - it couldn't get any better!

You should know that I had specific adorable children in mind. A family two houses down from us has at least 6 beautiful blond children and I am slightly obsessed with them. Not in a scary "I'm going to steal your child" way, but in a "please let me become friends with the mother so I can play with the kids and simultaneously learn tips for how to deal with that many children" way. I have never met them, but I adore and almost idolize them. I was certain that Halloween would be our chance for them to see what great neighbors we were and how we should all become friends!

Clearly, I had a lot riding on this.

As the day drew near, we carved our pumpkins.


We went to the store more than once to buy more candy. Not because I had eaten it all (I didn't!), but because we just kept worrying that we wouldn't have enough! We lived in a neighborhood after all! And actually having trick-or-treaters was a completely new experience for me! I grew up in the country - the only people that came by our house were our cousins and sometimes the one family across the road. One small bag was plenty.

Also, my parents didn't go for the whole "let your children run across the whole neighborhood (even if you don't live there) and fill an entire pillowcase with candy" thing. They drove us to the houses of our family and a few friends, and that was it. But I digress. Suffice to say, I was completely ignorant to just how many kids would be showing up.

A neighbor informed us that children usually start coming between 4:00 and 5:00. So promptly at 4:00, we were ready.

I donned the cowgirl dress that I've had since my mom and I made it in high school (any excuse to wear my boots):


And my husband the scientist donned his sumo wrestler costume:


Yes, that is in fact the world's best costume. Especially for a thin man.

The cool people that we are, we decided to construct a spreadsheet detailing our success.


Excel file prepared, we waited for the floodgates to open.

And waited.

And waited.

"Maybe their parents are making them all eat supper first," I suggested an hour and a half later. "We might as well have dinner, too. I'm sure that as soon as we sit down to eat, the doorbell will ring!"

It did not.

Finally, at 6:20 pm, our doorbell did ring!! The perfect group of young adorable children chimed "Trick or treat!" and all the preparation was worth it. With another group at 6:25 and another at 6:27 (official spreadsheet times), we were thrilled! It had begun!

We stood looking at the door, prepared for the next group. And the wait time between groups became longer and longer. And it started to rain.

I won't drag you through the rest of the painful evening, but I will say that the remaining kids who bravely sloshed through the cold and rain were rewarded with handfuls of candy. Here are the final results from our spreadsheet:


I could've been depressed about this. But I just couldn't be. How can you do anything but giggle when your husband is sitting next to you like this?

7 Quick Takes (10) - Planning Ahead

Check out conversiondiary.com for more Quick Takes!

1. The other day my husband and I were talking about our future children's future careers. Okay, so we're nowhere near pregnant, but we've already decided what four of them will be doing:

2. Farmer. Many people might laugh to see this one first, but this and the next one are the most important! See, my family's been farming the same land since 1818. That's almost 200 years! And sadly, not a single person in my generation is going to continue the family tradition. None of us 10 grandkids are going to become farmers. I am horrified by the thought that my dad and uncle might be the end of the line. So one of our kids is going to have to pick up the slack. Plans are already in the works for all of them to spend some time with my parents on the farm every summer.

3. Priest. Let's be honest, praying for vocations is not enough. We've got to try to foster them within our own families! I think one of the consequences of smaller families (ahem, thank you contraception) is that parents don't encourage this in their children. After all, if you've only got one son, you'd probably rather he carry on your family name.

My husband the scientist is adament that we will only be having sons, so that won't be an issue for us. Also, if we do have any daughters, religious life will be equally encouraged.

4. Doctor or Scientist. Many parents dream of their children becoming doctors; my dream specifies an NFP-only OBGYN. Of course my husband would be just as happy with a scientist, as one of his rants is the poor science education in this country and lack of American scientists (who are necessary for cool government-related science stuff).

5. Olympian. Between my ears and my husband's nose, we don't expect our children to be very good-looking; but we expect them to have strong bodies! Between my huge legs and my husband's thinness, things are looking good for our kids in the athletic department. My husband the scientist is convinced that he could train a professional hockey player. On my part I hold out hope for a triathlete or perhaps a professional cyclist. Note that while I played rugby in college and loved it, that will not be an option: I don't want our children exposed to that culture.

6. If we have more than four children, I guess that means one of them will actually get to decide their own future! Although I should add that if we do have a girl, my husband has deemed a country music singer an acceptable career for her.

If we have less than four, I think that Olympian would be the first to go. One of the others can just be a weekend warrior who always places in his age group.

7. Yes, I do realize that we don't get to pick and choose our children's careers for them and they will follow their own callings. I also realize that we are not in control of how many children we ultimately have, as much as we like to think we are. But it sure is fun to dream about it now!

How about you? What are your plans for your (future or real-life) children?


p.s. I'm making friends!